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Re: swiss-list: Double Taxation Switzerland and USA / Social Security

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Re: swiss-list: Double Taxation Switzerland and USA / Social Security

From: Dona Mommsen <click for textversion of email address >
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 09:46:41 -0700
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613)

Hi Laetitia and Ralf,

I agree with Ralf that it is not worth paying AHV, but let me repeat a
reminder concerning IV / AI I sent earlier to another posting:

Another question is what happens in case you become an invalid before
you retire. In this case gaps in your insurance will hurt, because they
shorten your pension according to the time you could have paid in since
you are 18. Example: If you are 30 when you become invalid and missed 2
years to pay invalidity insurance, they will shorten your payments by
2/(30-18)= 1/6, which is quite a lot.

However, you cannot pay just the invalidity insurance and not the AVS.
Personally my husband and I decided to resign from AVS, as it is simply
quite expensive and very uncertain what you really get in 30 years time.
We covered the 'gap' concerning invalidity with a private life
insurance: Lump sum payment in case of death, and a monthly payment in
case of invalidity. It is also quite expensive, but there you are more
flexible about what you think you would need in case of invalidity and
you know a bit better what you will get in the end.



On Apr 13, 2004, at 7:09 PM, Ralf Kubli wrote:

> Laetitia
> -AVS: you can only be dispensed from paying ss in the US if your
employer pays for avs in switzerland. there is a form for this that
your employer has to fill out. Usually this is done by large CH
companies, (sulzer, abb, ubs, etc.) if you work for a US company or are
not here as a transferee, you have to pay ss.
> -there is an agreement for the recognition of your ss payments if you
ever return to CH. there should be plenty of information in the archive
of the swiss list on this. in short: you pay ss in the US, for at
least 18months, you return to CH and they recognize the years that you
have contributed SS at 50% in CH.
> -I personally think you should save the money you pay into the AVS
while in the us and invest it in CH, you can make some calculation that
shows easily that you loose out on paying 9.something percent. Per year
that you do not pay avs in CH you loose 1/42 (or whatever the required
years of contribution are for a full benefit (rente). if you contribute
in the US to ss and go back to CH, they count your contribution time at
50%, so you actually only loose 1/84 of your maximum benefit times the
years you did not contribute in CH (as long as you pay SS).
> If you can afford to pay the 9.6% (or what it is) of AHV on your
pretax salary and pay Social security and live in Manhattan then I would
like to know which company you work for and maybe they have a job for
> Just make the rough calculation, you live 25 years after retirement:
> you don't pay avs in ch, and lose 2.3% of an assumed monthly benefit
of 2000CHF= CHF46 lost per month X12=552x25=13800CHF lost of AHV
payments per year you did not pay avs in CH. but this is money paid to
you in 30 or 40 years over a 25 year period, so you discount it back to
todays worth of money and you look at what you pay now: let's say you
have an income of 50 K and pay 9.6% of pretax dollars of voluntary avs:
$50000 x9.6%= 4800USD/per year you pay to Geneva.
> If you take this money and put it in a decent investment today and
wait until you are 65, it will be worth a lot more than the 13800CHF
that you potentially loose over 25 years (if you happen to live 25 years
after retirement, or if you still care what income you have with 88 ;))
by not paying avs for a few years.
> Not to mention the fact that if you still believe the avs will still
be looking the same in 30 years as it is now with the dramatic
demographic changes happening, then you must have very strong faith in
the swiss economy to be able to bear the burden of paying avs to all the
old people without having any population growth by births or immigration.
> -every resident in the US has to pay taxes, unless you are not a
resident, or work on a cash basis, which we can assume half of this
city operates on and a large part of the country does as well.
> Check out the archive in swiss list on this subject as well.
> I am sorry if I have bored some of you again (if you even got that
far reading) with the above elaborations, but as you can see, there is
some reasoning behind not paying voluntary avs in CH while paying SS in
the US.
> Regards
> Ralf
> On Apr 12, 2004, at 16:07, Laetitia Hirschy wrote:
>> Hi,
>> I understand that there are treaties between Switzerland and the US,
so that
>> you don't have to pay social security in both countries. How does
this work?
>> I currently live and work in NYC and pay social security here (which is
>> deducted from my salary at the end of each month) and AVS back at
home in
>> Geneva. I'd like to know how I can go ahead and be exempt from
paying soc.
>> sec taxes here and keep paying AVS in Switzerland since I intend to
go back
>> to CH at some point? Is there any other taxes that we are exempt from? I
>> heard that Chinese citizens don't have to pay taxes in the US
because they
>> have most-favored nation status with the US, do we have anything
like that?
>> Thanks,
>> Laetitia
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Received on Thu Apr 15 2004 - 16:46:11 PDT

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